Why Strong Communities Don’t Happen by Accident

Why does modern life feel so disconnected? In this episode, Cara Stern sits down with journalist and Scout leader Harrison Lowman to talk about the decline of community in Canada, and what it takes to rebuild it.

From scouting and volunteering to neighbourhood pubs, churches, and “third spaces,” they explore why strong communities don’t happen automatically, how urban design shapes social connection, and why so many people feel isolated despite living closer together than ever before. They also discuss parenting, trust, loneliness, suburban life, condo living, and the importance of showing up for your neighbours.

Topics covered:

• Why people feel more isolated today
• The decline of volunteering in Canada
• How urban design affects community
• Why “third spaces” matter
• Parenting, support systems, and “the village”
• High-trust vs low-trust societies
• How scouting builds community and leadership
• What it takes to know your neighbours again

Subscribe for more conversations on housing, cities, policy, and the future of Canada.

Chapters:

00:00 Why Community Is More Than Good Urban Design
02:22 Scouts, Service, and Teaching Kids to Contribute
04:04 Why Modern Life Makes Community Harder to Build
07:47 Third Places, Neighbours, and High-Trust Communities
11:55 A Surprise Pie and the Power of Trust
14:55 Finding Community Through Volunteering and Shared Purpose
17:17 You Have to Be a Villager to Have a Village
19:34 Can We Design Communities That Bring People Together?

Research/links:

» Volunteer wellbeing: what works and who benefits? 

https://whatworkswellbeing.org/resources/volunteer-wellbeing-what-works-and-who-benefits/ 

Exploring the Effects of Volunteering on the Social, Mental, and Physical Health and Well-being of Volunteers: An Umbrella Review - PMC 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10159229/

Hosted by Mike Moffatt & Cara Stern & Sabrina Maddeaux

Produced by Meredith Martin

Funded by the Neptis Foundation https://neptis.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Wow, this is like peak. This is peak community, an unasked for pie.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

A lot of people have a kid and then they're like, where's my village? I was promised a village. And I think that people don't understand that like you have to be a villager to have a village.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Demographics, hosted by Mike Moffat and Kara Stern.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

We talk a lot on this program about the physical parts of a community, you know, the housing, the zoning, the transit, the density, but you can build the most perfectly designed neighborhood in the world and still end up with a bunch of strangers living next to each other. So the physical design matters, but something else has to be there too. We have a guest today who's been thinking hard about what that something else is and how we build it. Harrison Lowman is the managing editor of the hub. He's an enthusiastic scout leader and someone I was very lucky to work with for almost a decade at TVO. So I'm thrilled to have you here today.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Thank you for having me on. I guess I'm a community expert. That's uh community organized. Wasn't Obama that? So I have a really I have a really ahead of me. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Ever since I've known you and you've talked about scouts and how important scouts is and how everyone should be doing scouts and putting their kids in scouts. So let's start with there. Why?

SPEAKER_01 1:09

I don't want to make this like uh advertisement, but I think often when we're focusing on extracurriculars for our kids, we're interested in like, I don't know, their individual development, their skills. And I'm interested in extracurriculars that are like feeding the community, right? For a neighborhood to work, as you mentioned, sort of off the top, you want that amazing, you know, house and the the beautiful neighbors that aren't strangers who know your name and unlock doors and everything. I think you have to actively feed it. So what I tell these cubs who are like between the ages of seven and ten when they join is like, yeah, we're gonna have fun and you're gonna learn skills around athletics and you're gonna be outdoors, etc. But you're also gonna do community service. So you're gonna sort of give back. Uh, a lot of this conversation is gonna be very corny, Cara, because I tell them things like if the neighborhood's a machine, then you guys are all little cogs in that machine, and we all got to be well oiled, and we all got to be turning around with our teeth fitting into one another for this whole thing to work. So that's why I say people should sort of join scouting, is because they're sort of giving back. And I can get into examples of that later, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

I love that idea of community as a machine because it gives you this like you had this visual where you're like, we're all taking part in it. It's not a machine that works on its own. You're like, you need people to operate the machines or be the cogs, as you said, be a part of it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

We keep talking about like Canada being broken. Is it, isn't it broken? And I don't know. I feel like these metaphors work in terms of like, okay, how do we fix it? And I feel like, you know, this is part of the fixing.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah, you and I both like we both love Canada, but are both very frustrated with Canada because there's like a lot of things we both see as moving in the wrong direction. I obviously focus a lot on like the housing side of it because I'm like housing theory of everything, fix that, and everything comes together. And you're focused a little bit more on like, I guess it would be the international role of Canada and Canada's like, I was trying to think of what your specialty is. Is it Canada's like identity in some ways?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, I think, yeah, the international, but it again, like I think you and I would agree, it starts at the local level. It's all uh bottom up. I think we've learned that top down doesn't really work and people have to be invested and where they most invest. And we see this in municipal politics, you know, people that are the politicians that are getting the calls are the ones that are, you know, are are having uh folks angry about their garbage not being picked up or like some sort of zoning bylaw being broken and uh something being built in the backyard. Like it, it's it it starts local. That's where people start to notice things and where they start to get frustrated and hopefully where they start to fix things.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

I think a lot of people talk about community as like it seems like something that they think like you find community if you're lucky. You move somewhere and you're like, how's the community there? Is it good? Like, I don't know that people realize that about how much being part of a community is an active thing. Like, why do you think people don't quite get that? Like that they the role that they have to play in the community.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

We have uh a culture now that is pretty self-centered. Our uh products we want, um, the movies and TV we consume, the apps on our phone, it's all like customizable around us, and it's very like me, me, me, and you know, the whole self-help movement, etc. And I would just say, you know, that's that's something there for sure. But I would often tell friends that the way to feel better about yourself is to give back and volunteer. So again, this is gonna sound kind of corny, but like, I don't know, I feel when I feel overwhelmed at work or uh with my new baby, and I feel like the world is, you know, imploding, helping out and you know, with scouting, like making sandwiches for the homeless or delivering food to needy families or delivering garden care stuff to to our neighbors so they could see our faces. Like that makes me feel better as a person. So I think it's something we should be looking at.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

There is also like studies to back that up. I was looking at some before this, and we'll cite some in the in the YouTube notes, but it's like there there is some evidence that if you are volunteering, you will feel more connected, and therefore feeling more connected makes you feel less lonely and happier. So there is information there to back it up.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Um yeah, Kara. Like there's been, I think in the last five years or so, a 20% drop in in uh uh volunteering in Canada. And obviously, COVID played a big part in that. My message during COVID, obviously being safe, was like, this is the time when people need to step up the most and help each other. And where like people really shone when it came to helping one another. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, I guess that makes sense when people are like a pandemic, people were so isolated. They're like, stay home on your own, be like, don't see other people, don't go outside of your bubble. And then that would make it an like extremely isolating experience. So I guess if you have the community side of it, like like what did you do during it?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Well, I just you mentioned bubbles, and it's one of my catchphrases now. Like, my fear is that we don't just have bubbles during COVID, it's that we now have them during regular life. You wake up in the morning and you get in your bubble car, you go to work, you're in your bubble cubicle, then you get uh back in your car. If people are now having lunch in their cars, I see on Instagram. Like, what at work? It's very weird. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Weird that seems very weird to us because when we were in our office, so when we worked together, we were like, let's take turns making lunch for each other with the five of us. Because we're like, this brings people together eating lunch together. So my mind is blown by the idea that someone would just want to eat in their car. Although I suppose there are more introverted people out there than us. So that that is a that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Those introverts, but yeah, then you come home and you're also in a anyway. So I'm I want a world free of bubbles, I want uh cross-pollination. I was very shy as a kid, Kara, as much as you think I'm as an I was an extrovert, like I was afraid to talk to strangers. And you, you know, you force yourself to talk to strangers when you're a journalist, it's just part of the job. But it's amazing now that it, you know, I'm in a neighborhood and it's part of the neighborhood that I sort of grew up in that I I just know like the people around me um will like lend a helping hand if I need it. If you have a high trust society, it means that people they're willing to help those beyond their family members. And I find comfort in that. A few months ago, I was here working from home and I had to finish a big piece and I didn't have a charger for my laptop. And I just I I mentioned on Facebook this happened, and then a random stranger uh in our neighborhood uh who then became a neighbor, let me borrow hers. I was welcomed into her home. She told me about her kids. I got to meet her dog. I don't know. These are the things that uh this is the zest of life, Cara.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Uh I think about how we design so much of our cities to the in a way that it makes it kind of easy to avoid accidental encounters with neighbors. Like they're we don't have a lot of like neighborhood pubs, for example, is like not a thing anymore unless in your like old parts of the city. Like you just like you can't build them, you're not allowed to build them. And and if you look at like our suburban neighborhoods, there's pretty much nowhere to walk to. So people are getting in their cars and going places. Like that's just the way they're designed. How do you counteract that? Because like I guess it's like it that's great. Like, if you can go out and like be like, hey, can I borrow a charger? And like, I mean, I would totally do that too. Be like, just maybe knock on a neighbor's door and ask for so that. But a lot of people don't want to do that. It takes like a lot of effort to do that and a lot of like pushing yourself if you're a shy person.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I for some of them, I would just say you gotta do it, and then it'll be uncomfortable at first, but it'll pay off in spades uh after the fact. I just you describe, we talk about like third places, third spaces, sorry. And I have one near here, thankfully, due to the efforts of uh like I think she's 85, Madeline McDowell, uh, an icon in this community, um, uh uh amateur historian who basically saved a place called the Lambton House down by the Humber River. It's an old coaching house like hotel from the 1800s, and it's got this storied history. Anyway, it's not just a historical site, these places increasingly, as you said, there's a need for a lot of activities. You know, I can hear young kids taking instruments lessons from these places, people sit taking tours, there's pub nights, there's meet and greets for seniors in the community who feel isolated. And they just become like uh neighborhood drinking holes, which I think we need more of. The church that um we do scouting out of that we've almost done for a hundred years, they've lent our space the space to us for free. And you know, we pay back in spades, uh, the scouts do by a few weeks ago helping to organize their rummage sale, putting stuff away and taking it out. That place is used, it does an AA meeting, it does Scottish country dancing, they record uh musical albums there. So, like, yes, uh it all it also is used as a place of worship, but increasingly it's more so used for other stuff. And um I'm happy that my son, if you know, if he he ends up joining Scouts, which he'll he'll be being biased, I will obviously force him into it.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah, I was like, you're giving him a choice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

But he will he will be in this like historic church and also have uh meetings and have fun and learn valuable lessons in like the same space that I did when I was when I was five years old.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Man, if only people didn't have to move out of their communities they grew up in because housing prices so high. So that's a very lucky, privileged thing to be able to do that. So lovely.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

And that's the other thing. Like, I think we those of us that do have these things should realize how fortunate we are, pay it forward, and also, like I said, feed that community because we have to realize that we're unique here and that not everyone has this. Some people are stuck, you know. There's people that choose to live in the suburbs, like you're talking about the suburbs, but then there's also people who are forced to. And I'm sure, yeah, obviously there's community in the suburbs as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

People find community in various places, but and in condos, like you can, but it's it's you have to you definitely have to make an effort.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah, like we we introduce our architectural like barriers that make it more difficult. It's like, yeah, you don't end up meeting that person because you don't have like a park or a parquet by your condo, and so you are just like passing ships in the night. I used to live in a small loft in West Toronto. Did I know my neighbors' first names? No, I barely you just hear them through the walls. It's kind of depressing in a way. I'd like know parts of their lives, but I'd never be able to really understand who the heck they were, and they didn't really care who I was.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yeah, I guess you have to make an effort. Like I knew a lot of my neighbors when I lived in high-rises, but that was like a choice where I'd like, I'd if I saw them, I would talk to them and then I'd like write down on my phone, like, remember who that person is. So next time I see them, I remember their name because otherwise I'll look at them and be like, I know you, who are you? Um, but it definitely takes a lot of effort. Like you have to counteract the built form that's there in order to get there. Do you think that we have to live in a high trust society to have this kind of community you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Well, it's harder, it's harder in urban areas, right? Like if you hear it all the time in rural areas, um, and you know, this increasingly, whether it's like people in mental crisis using drugs, et cetera, like it gets more difficult. People are obviously like hesitant about trying to form some of these connections when they have their uh their guard up. But and I don't think it will get to this, but like I I described to you a situation where in my wife's family's community in Lakefield, Ontario, near Peterborough, we came out of a church service and everyone has their their car doors unlocked, which I think is just nuts. But there was a pie like like on her father's dash of his car. Like someone had just left that there as a thank you. And I was like, wow, this is like peak. This is peak community, an unasked for pie that you're greeted by when you come out of the come on. I do think you need that trust. Like it's not just gonna come, it can't be um manufactured in an inorganic. It's just about, you know, how do we how do we build that trust? I don't know. I don't I don't have all the answers.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah, I was think about it, how it seems like I mean, I don't know if we'll ever get to like pie levels of trust in cities, because especially given the number of car thefts here, I don't think anyone's leaving their car unlocked. When people see like any disorder in their community, they start feeling disconnected a little bit, they get a little more insular and they isolate themselves more, which then makes it a little bit of a vicious cycle because you have to be open to connection in order to find connection. And that, like, I don't need like how do you break that loop? Any idea?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

I don't know. I really think Kara, you just have to like dive in. It's like dating. I tell people you have to put yourself in as many situations as possible where you're rubbing up shoulders next to like-minded people as possible, where your Venn diagram overlaps with like-minded folks. So often that means you know, being out of your comfort zone. If someone's like lonely, whether they be on Mat Leave or moving into the new neighborhood, they need to like pick up the community newspaper, look at the uh look at bulletins uh on polls around their house or go online and like try to see ways of of uh of interacting with others. A friend of mine, which I think is amazing, I hear about expats. In this case, my friend is in Berlin. Um, how did he get to know people there? And how did he tick some of the boxes we've just been discussing about? Moved to Berlin and he joined a litter picking community of people, mostly from the UK, who go around Berlin and spend their Sundays picking up litter and beautifying the city that they're so grateful to be able to live in that they are guests in. I think that's amazing. And in the process, they found friends. That that is a community in some ways, and they call it the litter picking community in Berlin. And um, does it get dicey sometimes? Are they picking up needles sometimes? Are they in rough areas? Yeah, but they're in a group and they trust one another and uh and they're giving back. And I think I think that's great. Like I encourage that's what I would encourage my friends to do.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I guess they're too old to join the join scouts there, but I I wonder if there's any like a leader.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

You can be a leader.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Even if you've never taken part in scouts, can you be a leader?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, of course. It's open to everyone. And again, it's boys and girls. Like one of my selling points is that I think it fills the gap when it comes to this crisis of young men we're seeing who are desperate for role models, who are increasingly listless and angry and looking for places to direct their energy. Like, I think Scouts is a is a great place for that. It's one of the few uh extracurriculars where you're like actually giving back. Again, it sounds corny, but like one of the mantras is to do a good turn for someone every day. It's not that I, you know, I do that every day, but it's like in the back of my head. Like, I'm thinking that. I'm actually like as a 34-year-old going about my day, I'm like, I don't know. I'm just like, did I do something for someone else? And the kids will say, like, well, just doing the dishes or chores cats. Like, that no, no, no, no. That does not obligation. Exactly, exactly. It's a responsibility. You need to like go out of your way, sometimes out of your comfort zone, to help uh someone else. And uh again, it it'll feel really good. And if you foster that at a young age, those kids grow up in our community um and they're all giving back to one another. And then I don't know, I just think that cross-pollination starts to happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

It is also one of the most affordable things you could put your kids in, which is like I don't know why, like, if it's like, is it super subsidized?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

We're all volunteers, so we give our time. I often found care when I was doing it. I was like, do I really have time for this? I'm so stressed with work. And then I realized that people are like, oh, I don't have time for this. It's like you make time for the things you care about. If you've noticed something is dropped by the right wayside, it's because you don't care about it. If you really care about something, you will make time and you'll come to the realization, like I did, that like I can work on something longer and feed, I don't know, the employment side of things. Or I can do this and like I'm not really religious, but it takes like religious overtime. Like feed it, you're feeding your soul. You're like, you're you're you're giving back. You smil, see the smiles of all these young kids, you realize you're having an impact on their lives, you're trying to be a good role model. And like it, I don't know, it feeds your soul in a different way. It distracts you from the bull crap you're dealing with elsewhere. And it's just nice to have like another track on your life for you to travel on.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

I think it would definitely pay off when you have kids because like one of many things that drives me crazy when I talk to people who have kids is they're they're often like are shocked by how little community they have. Like you hear about like it takes a village to raise a child, and a lot of people have a kid and then they're like, Where is my village? I was promised a village. And I think that people don't understand that like you have to be a villager to have a village. And it's something that I I constantly remind people who who say that. I see it a lot, like a lot of people online will talk about this. I find in like there's certain areas in my life where also where I talk to like other parents and they are like saying how hard it is, and it is hard, but also how they have no support and they thought they would have support. And there's just something with like this idea that you have to build community before you need the community, because you you can't just be like community is not just there for you to take things from, like you have to build it beforehand. And I think that you will it'll come back to you, you'll, you'll, it'll pay off in spades, as you said. Um, and that's somewhere that people should think about it. Like that's I don't know if you're finding that, like having kids, like you you must be finding that you're get playing it a little bit on easier mode now that you have that sort of community and you're lucky enough to live near where your parents are and where you grew up, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

My next door neighbor said to me when he found out we were pregnant, he's like anytime you need to just no questions asked, walk into my house and hand me a crying baby, I will say nothing to you and I will just look after him. And I was like, whoa, I haven't used that, I haven't played that card yet. It's just the fact that he even said that. Like it's it's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Do you know the neighbor?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, I know him pretty well. But to be able to just because he he know, like we have there's so many kids here. We have families on either side that are willing to help. But yeah, it's like you said, you build up your supply so that when you have to use it, but again, that I would say almost that's like I don't care if they pay it back. Like I want to just give the I don't it doesn't have to be returned to me. Often you see for housing uh instruction like come to Ronsonsville. It's like you know, trendy hip, like community is just around the corner. And again, yeah, it becomes this like weird selling point when really it's it's it's organic. It's like it has to be uh fed. It's not just this like this talking point for some developer to put on their brochure.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Well, I think you can build something that like encourages community. As you said, like if you have like the parquets, if you have like local retail or little cafes and things that you can walk to, I think you can build things that encourage it.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

It is organic in some ways, but it's also like it does take so much effort. And that's something that I hope that like if there's anyone listening to this who's feeling isolated, like takes that away from this, is that like it is out there. You just have to really make an effort and maybe volunteer, maybe join your like some sort of circles nearby that'll that'll get you there and and and be there for other people too.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

And for all the introverts out there you mentioned earlier, like there's different roles, right? There's people who don't want to be public-facing and they can be like the treasurer of some sort of community group, right? They don't need to be the like head leader, head honcho. We have various people that are, you know, are more happy to sort of be in the background or deal with the numbers. And then there's also, you know, extroverts like myself who want to be like front row center. Um but yeah, I every year we have a banquet, and every year we're kind of desperately encouraging parents to volunteer because yeah, with a lot of stuff, I don't I often don't uh know if a lot of people realize how many roles are like their volunteer roles, people doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. Not with kids in the program sometimes for for cubs, and you know, their kids uh cycle through and get older, and they're still like it's like a teacher, right? It's amazing. Like if you're a volunteer with young people, you're like leaving an impression on multiple generations of Torontonians. And I think that's like a lovely thing to think about.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I'm picturing all these like little minds shaped by Harrison Lomans out there, just mini Harrison Lomans. Oh my god, that's a little scary thought. Harrison, thanks so much for being here. I love talking to you about this. Like, I hope a lot of people can learn from your experience and community because you've figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Oh yeah. Far from figuring it out, but thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Thanks to everyone for watching and listening. Our producer is Meredith Martin and our editor is Sean Foreman. And if you have any questions about being in scouts, you can email us at missingmiddlepodcast at gmail.com and I will forward it along to Harrison.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Oh my god. Okay, I'm waiting for a deluge.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

And we'll see you next time.